Citi idea of a cca, say 1974 CCA not applicable, 1983 regs are

[mak71]

Opened my post today, and have 2 cca requests returned,

only 10 days late

this one is from citicards for a credit card, cant remember exact date i took it out, but its a few years ago , poss 2004-2005

Anyway, its 15 pages long,

will only post the first page up cause basically the other 14 pages are all just terms and conditions, and nothing with my name and address on at all,just all A4 print outs,

The page im posting here (please see below)is the only one with any of my details on, but its not an agreement,just a basic letter telling me

 

"we regret to inform you that under section 78cca 1974 does not require citifinancial to provide you with a copy of the executed agreement as you appear to beleive.It requires citi to provide you with a "copy of the executed agreement" as defined by the consumer credit (cancellations notices and copies of documents) regulations 1983

The obligation to provide you with that document is fulfilled by the provision of the terms and conditions blah blah blah

 

There a bit more going on about not needing to be an exact replica of the original but an extract since it is allowed to omit information including signature box,signature and date of signature

 

So im kind of confused, what are they going on about, are they trying to baffle me with fancy wording to confuse me?

are they talking out of their backsides and trying it on or are they right?

all help much appreciated

Mak

 

[Josie8]

From experience all it means is that they don't have an enforceable cca:D

[mak71]

Josie, thats what i was thinking/hoping. i was suspicious straight away thinking it was a smokescreen ,hope im right, as its one of my bigger accounts

but just posting for the more experienced CAG members amongst you for confirmation,

as im a newbie and very inexperienced.

 

took em a long time to reply as well seeing as its only a standard printout,

maybe they have spent 4 weeks looking for the original:D

Mak

[noomill060]

"It requires citi to provide you with a "copy of the executed agreement" as defined by the consumer credit (cancellations notices and copies of documents) regulations 1983"

 

Oh dear, they havent got a clue, have they?

 

They are required to provide you with a true copy of the executed agreement as prescribed by Consumer Credit Act 1974 and in schedule 6, column 2 of the Consumer Credit (agreements) Regulations 1983.

 

The Consumer Credit (cancellations notices and copies of documents) Regulations 1983 is not relavent for s.78 requests, save for the fact that they can omit a signature, apart from that - whatever they supply you with must be a "True Copy"

 

So yes, it looks like they havent got one and they are trying to baffle you (and by extension, us Caggers) with bull poo.

 

It hasnt worked, Citi. ;-)

Edited November 15, 2008 by noomill060

[Josie8]

yes well I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for them to send you an enforceable one lol!

[noomill060]

Do you have any charges or PPI premiums to reclaim?

 

Now would be good time reclaim them and all interest levied- with no record of you ever having agreed to pay them... you get my drift?

 

You've got them on the ground. Start kicking. Hard.

[mak71]

So are they blatantly misleading me with that letter,?

surely a big financial institution like citi should know the law back to front,

Are they allowed to send out letters like this without any legal comeback,if what they put in the letter does turn out to be incorrect.?

They have made it clear in the first 2 lines that i applied for a cca under section 78 of the 1974 act, so why are they rambling on about the 1983 act?

Should i report this matter to anyone,?or just leave it and wait for their next move,?

So can i just confirm, that is not an agreement, even i know that, but is what they saying 100% bulls*it,and they are required to send me a copy of my true agreement?even if they say they dont

Mak

[mak71]

Do you have any charges or PPI premiums to reclaim?

 

Now would be good time reclaim them and all interest levied- with no record of you ever having agreed to pay them... you get my drift?

 

You've got them on the ground. Start kicking. Hard.

 

Noonmill, unfortunately ive never been charged anything other than the usual interest as ive never missed a payment until last month,

they have sent me a letter this month though with charges on for late payment, which has also now put the account over the credit limit as well now.

 

I take it general interest incurrred during the time ive had the card is not refunadable, for the last 2 years ive only paid off the min monthly amount so most of my payments got swallowed up with interest

 

 

Whats the next move, a bog off letter

Mak

[Josie8]

Did you make a subject access request with £10 fee at same time? If not make one. But my experience tells me that if they have a enforceable cca they will send it with the s.78 request.

[noomill060]

They are well aware of the Law, its just they choose to ignore it because most people are unaware of their rights.

 

You now appear to have charges to reclaim, the charges are accruing interest, taking you (unlawfully) deeper into the red!

 

Go get 'em.

[creditcardmug]

From experience all it means is that they don't have an enforceable cca:D

 

Couldn't agree more, they have nothing, but are trying to make something.

 

Standby i will find a suitable reply.

[noomill060]

If you like, you can ask the court for a declaration that the account is unenforceable due to the absence of any agreement.

 

That would saying goodbye to yout credit card, though. It up to you.

 

Without an agreement, they are rather short in the "leg to stand on" department

[mak71]

No i didnt do a sar, just a standard cca request,

sorry im confused here, am i entitiled to claim back interest ive paid on the balance from my min monthly payments?surely that would be really kicking a dog while its down:confused: and if there was anything due back to me wouldnt they just knock it off the balance anyway?

should i still send a sar even though ive never paid any penalty charges,?

Mak

[mak71]

If you like, you can ask the court for a declaration that the account is unenforceable due to the absence of any agreement.

 

That would saying goodbye to yout credit card, though. It up to you.

 

Without an agreement, they are rather short in the "leg to stand on" department

 

Noonmill the credit card is maxed up to the limit anyway , so dont need it,

is it better to get a court to make a declaration or let sleeping dogs lie and wait for them to threaten to take me to court and then go along and if still no cca ask for the judge to declare it unenforcable,

im guessing they will just pass it on to a dca anyway when i dont pay.

whats the best way to play this?

Mak

[noomill060]

Hi mak-

 

have a read of this thread-

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/130899-cca-copy-document-regualtions.html

 

It explains things a lot better than me.

[creditcardmug]

Here are the bones of a reply to them, the bottom line is they do not appear to have an agreement (why am i not surprised), They are an american company and no doubt know american law very well, but how well do they know british law?

 

FYI a Statutory Instrument (SI) is a regulation attached to an act of parliament by parliament.

 

Re; your recent reply to my request under section 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

I note that you have replied to the above by sending a copy of your companies current Terms and conditions I must inform you that this is not sufficient to comply with the request and that your company is still in default under the act.

 

To clarify, just sending the Terms and Conditions is a breach of the Act and Regulations as, apart from the information that the Regulations provide that you may exclude, the copy must be a "true copy" of the agreement.

 

This breach of the agreement can be demonstrated as follows;

 

As you will know section 180(1) (b) authorises, "the omission from a copy of certain material from the original, or the inclusion of certain material in condensed form." This refers to statutory instruments made under the heading Copies of document regulations and in this care in particular to SI 1983/1557.

 

Before leaving section 180 there are two other sections that should be remembered these are:

 

Section 2(2) (a) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not satisfied unless the copy supplied is in the prescribed form and conforms to the prescribed requirements;

 

And more importantly

 

Section 2(b) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not infringed by the omission of any material, or its inclusion in condensed form, if that is authorised by regulations.

 

You will see that this quite clearly states that whilst certain items may be left out of the copy document the rest of the document must be in the form and contain all items as prescribed by the regulations.

 

Turning to the regulations regarding what may be omitted from these copies these are contained with SI 1983/1557.

 

The regulations state:

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancellable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

 

It is quite clear what can be omitted from the copy document, this again asserts that all other details of the agreement should presented in form and content as required by the regulations.

 

The requirements of the Agreement regulations 1983/1553 are very explicit in describing the form and content of an agreement and this as I have demonstrated also applies to the copy of any such agreement with the above mentioned proviso.

 

Nowhere within these regulations does it state that part of the agreement can be presented on a separate document headed terms and conditions. It does state that all terms and conditions should be within the agreement document and is explicit of the form in which it is presented.

 

I hope this explains why your reply was unacceptable I await a True copy of my agreement and would remind you again that whilst the request has not been complied with the default continues.

[noomill060]

Excellent letter of curleyben's in CCA copy document regualtions 1983 / 1557 as well.

[mak71]

Thanks, will get one of those 2 letters off on Monday,

any confirmation anyone on if basic interest charges can be claimed back,

or is that likely to send em searching every square inch of their stored archives to find my agreement,?

Mak

[dpick]

 

I take it general interest incurrred during the time ive had the card is not refunadable, for the last 2 years ive only paid off the min monthly amount so most of my payments got swallowed up with interest

 

 

Whats the next move, a bog off letter

Mak

 

Hi I had a credit card improperly executed therefore unenforceable and two catalogue accounts that had no agreements.

 

The CC account I had cleared as unenforceable (settled out of court after first hearing)

 

The catalogue accounts one debt cleared and the other I reclaimed alld charges an and all interest applied to the account as no agreement to allow application of charges or interest to the account.

 

pick

[noomill060]

Its sometimes better to give sleeping dogs a poke with a sharp stick, at least they know you mean business.

 

(They do have a nasty tendancy to wake up when you least expect it and bite you on the bum!)

 

I like to get my retaliation in first these days. Once upon at time I would let them sleep, but not anymore.

[noomill060]

No, it would be waste of time and effort trying to claim basic interest paid back. Its been tried and its classed as a sort of "gift"

 

In the same way that money they lent you without an agreement is classed as a sort of gift.

[mak71]

Hi I had a credit card improperly executed therefore unenforceable and two catalogue accounts that had no agreements.

 

The CC account I had cleared as unenforceable (settled out of court after first hearing)

 

The catalogue accounts one debt cleared and the other I reclaimed alld charges an and all interest applied to the account as no agreement to allow application of charges or interest to the account.

 

pick

 

Dpick, did you start the proceedings to get them cleared or did you wait for them to come after you?

 

Noonmill, im still waiting on a few more cca"s (all went into default on 6th nov) got an halifax cca today for a unsecured loan, from 2004,will get it scanned and posted tommorrow

looks ok but if there are any mistakes in it i know im in the right place to get them exposed:D

why did it take me so long to find this site, im sure i aged 10 years in the last 6 months before stumbling accross cag,

 

 

 

Mak

[creditcardmug]

why did it take me so long to find this site, im sure i aged 10 years in the last 6 months before stumbling accross cag,

 

 

 

Mak

 

I think i aged 10 years before finding this site also, i felt physically sick when i got the first court claim, but im ok now, i just wish more of the unsuspecting victims of creditors/DCas could be directed here somehow.